Pooky Ponders: How can schools take a trauma informed approach post pandemic? | Stuart Guest

In today’s episode I’m exploring the question ‘How can schools take a trauma informed approach post pandemic?’ with Stuart Guest.  

Stuart has over 13 years’ experience as a head teacher and is a father of a birth child and two adopted children. He has developed trauma friendly approaches at his school and has seen the positive impact this can have on pupils, families, staff and outcomes for his school.  

Listen Here:

Watch here:

Further resources

You may also be interested in the following courses or resources:

Reducing Exclusions Through a Trauma Informed Approach – on demand course

Enable Children to Feel Safe so They Can Flourish – on demand course

How to Become a Trauma Informed School – Free downloadable guide

Show Transcript:

Please note that the transcript is auto generated.

Pooky Knightsmith: welcome to pooky ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I’m Dr. Pooky Knightsmith And I’m your host. In today’s episode, I’m exploring the question. How can schools take a trauma informed approach post pandemic with head teacher Stuart guest Stewart has over 13 years experience as a head teacher and as a father of a birth child and two adopted children.

He’s developed trauma friendly approaches at his school and has seen the positive impact this can have on people’s families, staff, and outcomes for the school. I brought this episode forward in my schedule as I couldn’t wait to share it with you. Listen to the end where Stewart’s closing thoughts left me lost for words, and with a massive lump in my throat.

Enjoy the show.

Stuart Guest: I’m Stuart Guest, the head teacher of Colborne primary school in Birmingham. Um, and I’ve got two adopted children and the birth daughter as well, and we are a trauma-informed school and we have been for quite a few years, um, and we try to do the best that we can for our children, particularly those with additional needs.

And how much of what you do and your drive as a trauma informed school is informed by your personal experience because as a fellow parent of both the biological and adopted daughter, I mean, I assume it would inform me quite a bit. Yeah, absolutely. I think I, over the last sort of. 12 years plus, um, my learning as, as, as rapidly grown.

Um, but also I’ve got a really great team of staff, um, particularly members of my leadership team, my assistant head for inclusion, who is trauma informed. So I’ve got people around me that are like-minded that have been able to challenge me, me, challenge them, um, to have a collective and understood approach to being trauma informed because you can’t be one person it’s gotta be everyone.

So it’s kind of driven by up, uh, uh, personal passion and your, your personal life, but then, uh, very much with your professional hat on you’ve got that, that team who are fully on board and just kind of backstepping cause we never know who’s who’s going to listen in and many people who are listening in trauma informed will be part of their kind of common vernacular.

But for some people it won’t be so can you just explain what, what does it mean to be a trauma informed school and why does it matter? Absolutely for me. It’s it’s to start with it’s about knowledge, it’s about learning for staff about what trauma means, the impact that can have on children, um, how to support them, their coping mechanisms and the therapy mechanisms.

So that’s the first part for me, it’s understanding what it actually means and the impact that trauma can have on children. And then for me, the next stage is about the whole policies and procedures. Okay. So what needs to change within a school setting that reflects the knowledge that you’ve now gained and that, and that’s critical that things like behavior rewards, sanctions, approaches, um, the type of staffing you have all that, and then it goes into the provision.

Okay. What does it look like in the classroom? What does it look like when a child is really struggling? What does it look like at the start of the day? What does it look like at dinner time and transition points? So it moves from the knowledge there, making sure your policies reflect that and then into the actual practice and what you see on the ground for the children.

And what do we mean by trauma? I think people need to understand the two main different types of trauma. You’ve, you’ve caught that trauma. That’s, that’s an acute incident, a car crash, or, you know, something like that. And then you’ve got that ongoing trauma. That’s repeated over a long period of time that physically changes the body and how you react to things.

And it’s those understand those two different traumas that are really important because they need different type of provision in schools. So what I’ll do a lot of work on is that ongoing trauma. So those children that have had difficult starts in their lives, they’re all already in the home life, but it isn’t right and they’re not getting the nurture and the care they need.

That’s going to impact on them. Um, so it’s about understanding what that might look like for them. And then if they are, you know, hypervigilant, or if they’re very short, fused and reactive, why that might be and what we can then do to help. And you’re saying that this kind of approach sort of finds its way into all that you’re doing such right there at the high level, in your, kind of in your, in your policy and how you approach everything.

And then obviously it must be playing out in your practice. Day-to-day could you give me an example? So if we took behavior, what would a trauma informed approach to behavior look like? Yeah, absolutely. So I think it’s, it’s a few key things. One, when you say a child say being disruptive, for example, let’s say in the classroom.

Yeah. The trauma-informed view would be okay. I can see that child is struggling. I wonder what’s going on. What’s the best way to support them. Okay. A non trauma-informed way is they’re causing me trouble. They need to be out in my room. Okay. And I think it’s those two directions that behavior policies can go in.

You know, it’s the, it’s the more punitive the isolation, or just get out of my room. You’re disturbing others. They they’ve got a right to learn that type of approach. And actually, what is he saying? Is it say that they’re just having a really difficult morning. Something’s gone on where they actually say my teaching is not very good today and they’re getting bored easily.

So it’s that being really reflective and think, okay, what is this, what is this telling me? And what do I need to do? That’s quite hard though. Isn’t it. If you’ve got a kid kicking off in your class and you’ve got 29 other kids to teach as well, and maybe they’ve got your backup because I mean, regardless of what might have caused that, that’s hard now.

I mean, how do you know that it’s completely hard, but this isn’t just, you drop a trauma-informed approach onto a class, go, it’s embedded through our culture and on how we talk to children, how we greet children. You know, if we see that child struggling in, in a, in a lesson, the teacher won’t berate them and show to them, they will go over and go, James, I can see you struggling today.

Okay, may maybe you’re struggling with the work. Is that right? You know, w we it’s that inquisitive, you know, approach. I’m curious about what’s going on here and would, you know what we’re going to do this together? And it might be, they need to come and sit with you as a teacher, but that’s not a punishment.

It’s me saying to you, and you just do the child. I care about your learning. I want you to do well, and I’m going to help you here. We’re in this together, you know, it’s that, it’s just compassion, it’s care, knowing that these kids, you might not know half of what’s going on in their lives, but, you know, we can still be there for them.

So to kind of extrapolate from that, then if a trauma informed approach where we’re kind of curious about sort of challenging behavior we might see is really about caring. Does that mean that the, kind of the more traditional approach that perhaps is what we might see more in the directive down from DFE and so on?

Is that not caring? I think each school has to make its own decisions about what they think, um, is in the best interest of their children. If they have the knowledge of being trauma informed. If I understand the difficulties, these children have a deeper level, so they’ve got the knowledge and then they make those decisions.

Then I would say they’re informed decisions. However, what worries me is that some of those decisions have been made without the knowledge of the impact of trauma on children. And therefore those decisions are based on the wrong information. And could they be traumatizing and themselves, those things that we ended up doing?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you think about, so, you know, the whole names on boards, you know, stars on the board and stuff like that, it’s just shame based approaches and people do them in, in, in best. Best interest. I think in, you know, this is what we’ll do, but this is what we’ve always done. But actually if you go back and unpick them and go, well, what does that say to that child?

That’s never on green. What does it say to the child? That’s always on red. Okay. Does he actually work as an approach or is it you trying to control the situation and do you, when you kind of look back because presumably this has been something of a journey, um, for your school and I’m sure that you’re still learning, we all are all the time, but do you look back earlier in time and think, gosh, I wish we wouldn’t have done things that way.

Right? Absolutely completely. You know, going back to, I remember probably about eight, nine years ago now we, we sent some of our six children on a, on a particular trip. Only those that had got certain behavior. Ah, You just, you just heading your hands, but as a  training to schools, you can only go from what you know, and you can only go from where you are now you have to forgive.

And I say this to parents as well. You have to forgive yourself for things that you’ve done in the past. Okay. If that, if you now know they weren’t the right thing, because we’re all on that journey, we’re all learning. And as long as we’re continuing to do the best that we can, then that’s good enough.

And I think that is a really important thing as an ex. I think sometimes otherwise we can end up, uh, you know, somebody listening in might be earlier on in this journey and, uh, they might look to you and your school as an example, and just feel where we’re a million miles from that and how do we do this?

And we’re getting it wrong and I’ll be harming the children. And I guess every journey starts with a single step, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I’m thinking one of the biggest steps that we had probably going back many, many years now is the taking away of those behavior boards, where the children had their names and moved up and down.

Yeah, it was, it was, I think people felt that what, well, what else is there? We’ve we don’t have that. What, what do we have? And it is, it’s just about the relationships, you know, it’s about a child who’s struggling and you have that conversation with them or you, you, you keep them at the end of the lesson.

So I, you know, a notice it was, that was really tricky for you today, that lesson. Okay. And that’s what people need. It’s about connection. You know, it’s that whole analogy is Nick connection before correction. You know, if we haven’t got a relationship with someone, there’s no way you’re going to be able to sort of change and support their behavior.

If you don’t have a relationship with them, they’re just going to be looking at you and going pop yours internally. Anyway, at least, and many of the schools I’ve worked with and did your staff kind of quite willingly come on this journey, presumably now you’re at a point where you recruit staff, who’s got a similar mindset, but I mean, you must’ve started with a mixture.

I mean, yeah, absolutely. I think I’ve always led with, with some care and compassion with, with the children have always had tried to do strong relationships and just be nice, just be a nice person. And, um, yeah, we had staff in the past that didn’t get it. And even with the support, the training, the coach and the mentor, and just because of their own potential issues and their own head space, weren’t able to adapt enough.

Uh, and at that point in the best interest of the school, they need to move on. Yeah. Because if, because ultimately it’s the children that have to be the priority there, but you’re right. I recruit now only those people that have got bats, um, in their general psyche. And we tease that out very carefully in interviews, how through the questioning.

So the challenging, you know, when you ask a question about your, your approach to behavior in the classroom, you know, usually the stock answer is around the policy, the school policy. So, you know, you dig deep. Well, what do you feel? What would you, what would you do in these circumstances? You know, what’s your natural style.

Um, and you, you, you, you tease it out. You can, you can get that from, um, from an interview with some careful questioning. Do you think you pick it up quite quickly now, whether someone’s going to be a kind of good cultural fit. Yeah. So certainly certainly I halfway through the interview, you’ve got a sense whether this person is, is matched to your sort of way, your way of thinking.

And you’re also a temps in attachment aware school. Right? What does that mean? Yeah, a few years ago, um, the Edward Timson trust who does, there’s a lot of the trauma-informed schoolwork and attachment awareness. Um, they just recognized our school for doing the work that we do and just gave us a water and a walk award ceremony for the attachment research community that takes place in the West Midlands and beyond.

Oh, that’s really cool. How did that feel? Um, it’s always lovely to get stuff like that. And one of the things I don’t do as a school is, is go out for awards and quality marks. And I know that, um, only way I was going to help leadership in terms of their development. Um, but so it was nice. It was nice to sort of get a bit of recognition and, um, it means that the messages that I can give you my training.

It’s got a bit more back in that, you know, this has been recognized that this is an approach that works by a big national campaign that’s and it’s nice that they, that they, they did recognize they did recognize what you were doing. Did you feel that it was see sometimes when I talk to, uh, people who’ve been recognized for what they’re doing, there’s almost that kind of slight feeling of imposter syndrome.

So I think sometimes, yeah, you feel like the more that, you know, the more you realize that you’re still on a journey, isn’t it completely play? Like, you know, what am I, I’m now into sort of 13 years of headship and I still regularly get imposter syndrome. Um, you know, it’s, it’s cause you’re constantly learning and I think the best sort of people, teachers, leaders are those that keep reflecting on what they’re doing.

Is this right? What does it mean for the child? What does it mean for the members of staff and the parents and the community? And that’s key, I think to keep learning and keep reflecting. I think that’s really important. And I think it is one of the things that enables us to do a good job, but it also is difficult if you’re always challenging yourself like that.

You don’t ever just want to go. Yeah, we don’t know, right? Yeah. No, my, my, my head space, um, is, is very busy. I have a very busy head and, um, and I think that what keeps me going a lot of the time. Yeah. I can imagine that it would be, uh, yeah, it would be a key driver. I can definitely empathize with that. The imposter syndrome thing.

I’m wondering about that in the context of the current situation, because, um, it’s something I’ve been having a lot of conversations with people about it at the moment and how much people have got that. You know that back to school in September feeling when everyone gets a bit of imposter syndrome about returning to the chalk face.

But right now it feels like that magnified because none of us know what we’re doing. Do we like the future? So I’m certain, we’re all having to learn how to do new things. We’re having to teach in different ways. And yeah, we, we don’t know the answers and that’s really tough. Right. And, and I wondered about how, uh, yeah, what your reflections were on that and what, how you adapt that in terms of your sort of trauma informed approach and stuff.

There’s a question in this, almost you go through the back to school for this. September is going to be the most challenging that we’ve we’ve ever faced. Um, and having the troll informed Haton means that we have to do significantly different things, because we know that we’re going to have a range of children coming back.

Those I’ve loved. I love being at home. You know, those I’ve loved being at home that want to come back to school and we’ll continue to love being at school. You know, those that haven’t had a great time. Those are like nothing. Those have learned lots, you know, to a whole range. Um, so what we’re doing very carefully, we’ve completely changed our weekly timetable for September.

So every day starts with some circle time or social time, because that’s going to be critical to start with giving a children’s space and time to your children, just to, uh, three to 11 nursery TSX. Um, we’re ensuring that all lessons to start with are very short because it shows that we’re sort of 30 minutes maximum the same across the school.

But obviously for the, the earlier as it’s going to be five, 10 minutes, you know, for the introductions, but, you know, even for the juniors, you know, 30 minutes maximum, and then there’s, there’s a break. Oh, there’s some, some sensory activity or another sort of up and down activity, a little break, um, a lot more outdoor time with the guarantee and an outdoor activity daily.

So not just a couple of PE lessons. So whether that’s extended breaks, going for a bike ride, going for a walk, um, doing some outdoor adventure activities, teamwork or PA. So that’s a daily, daily outdoor activities for the children as well, right before, before and after dinner, before and after break is a transitional activity.

Yeah. So, you know, after dinner they’ll come in and do, um, there’ll be some music or there’ll be a Headspace activity or mindfulness activity. And that’s a daily because we have to watch those transitions very, very carefully. That’s where a lot of our children were when struggle. And how do you, um, make that work?

Because presumably, I mean, is this that your kids have had practice at doing these kinds of activities or are you introducing them now or what there’s, there’s been certainly been some of those activities that we’ve done. Um, but there’ll be a lot more of those. So we’re training staff, um, in September on those types of activities.

Um, so that they’ve got an armory, a bit of a tool kit of things they can do. Um, we’re starting, we’ve got a couple of days back in, um, in the first week sort of just settling in and then a home the week after is going to be a wellbeing week. So there’s gonna be a whole focus on wellbeing for the children for a whole week.

And then there’s gonna be a wellbeing focus every week, then for the half term. Wow. And how did you go about putting together your ideas for the return and how it was going to work with that sort of joint process amongst staff? Or did you come up with it mainly yourself or, yeah, no, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve asked all staff.

We’ve also asked the key to two members of staff that work on our curriculum, forest two classrooms based teachers, along with the leadership team. And we’re saying, you know, what do we think the issues are going to be for our children? What do you think they might need more? What does that curriculum need to look like?

What is the week daily to look like? And we’ve just put all those ideas into a pot and we’ve come up with like example weekly plans and timetables and what it might look like for teachers. I mean, the classroom. And have you involved the kids at all or not at this point? Not at this point now. Um, we are planning to do a child survey in the first few weeks that they’re back asking them about their experiences, how they’re currently feeling about school.

And the idea was to do that regularly so that we can pick up those children who we might not typically know are on our radar. Yeah. And that’s one thing I’m wondering about, I’m kind of curious about how do we know what need we’re going to be met with, because for lots of these kids, we’ve been really quite out of touch for a little while now.

And, um, I think people are reporting a range of things. Aren’t they, some people are saying kids who are really struggling are actually really thriving at home. Then there is others where there’s new needs that we maybe don’t know about. And what’s your, I mean, how are you going to manage that? Yeah, I think the key thing is, is knowledge.

Isn’t it? It’s finding out. So we’ve got a pastoral team, so I’ve got my learning mentors. My assistant had my family support worker. There would be making phone calls throughout the whole of lockdown weekly and some of them daily to our key, to our key families. Yeah. We’ve also had a system where we can identify any family that I’ve got dark.

So they’re not engaged in any online learning or not responding to any messages. And that triggers a phone call. As well. So we, we know generally, which are our key families that have struggled, but in August, my pastoral team are currently coming up with an online questionnaire for parents. So in, in all, in August, they will fill that questionnaire in saying, how is your child now?

How are they thinking about coming back to school? What has been the main challenges for them? Um, and we basically do like a rug writing for different needs and they will be given to the teachers in September before the children come back and we’ll have, we’ll have some information about which children we think might need some additional work.

And then the learning mentors and the, the teams will pick all those children. Very very quickly. I see. So you’re using the approach that you described was, you’re kind of, that’s your universal sort of offer if you like, but you were still have your specific, additional provisions. Yeah, absolutely. The trauma-informed practice as a school leader is a universal opportunity children, you know?

Um, cause it’s just nice. It’s the right thing to do. And then you’ve got need additional needs then, which are there, you know, those that kids have struggled or that don’t want to come back to school or they’ve had a bereavements. And then you obviously get your complex and significant where we’re going to have, you know, lots and lots of one-to-one mentoring work or additional agencies committing to support.

And how is this all going to work? I mean, maybe you don’t know the detail on this yet. I think we’re all figuring out aren’t we, but how is this going to work? Like logistically, um, stuff like what’s your school gonna look like? And who’s going to be leading this because so many questions that are really, but you know, everybody’s going to need to know how to do all the things, right?

Absolute logistically and operationally. This is a nightmare in terms of the guidance, in terms of trying to get the children into different places at different times, without crossing and all that type of thing. So we just keep, we’re just working on that. I’ve got a meeting straight after this, where we’re sort of doing the dinner time tables and the movement, and, you know, it’s, it’s very operational, um, which.

Which is it needs to be in, but it’s not my, not my preferred use of my time. Although I think it is really important because at the moment I didn’t, I’m having a lot of conversations with people about the things we can control and the things that are beyond our control and actually these things that you’re meeting about, they feel a bit boring, but they are the things we can control.

Right. And then the things that we can tell the kids, this is how it works. These are the rules right now. This is our consistency. And I think for a lot of children, that structure and routine is critical in terms of the return because they, then it helps them feel safe. They know what’s going on. They don’t need to use as much Headspace in terms of knowing where they need to be, because it’s the same and it’s routines.

Um, so yes, it’s getting to get as tight as possible in terms of the organization, but it won’t feel like it to the children. They would just get. It going into the right time to the right place. They won’t see the complexities of like the London underground type things can change and move. Um, but it will just work, but we’ve gotta get, I love that it will just work.

Haven’t figured it out yet, but it will work. I have every faith that will work. Tell me about, um, new starters and what is, you know, in, in normal times, if there’s ever such a thing, um, what your new starter kind of processes for kids and families and, and how you kind of bring them in. Um, but then also what’s that going to look like for your September starts as this year, who won’t have had the normal transition?

Absolutely. The Tron trash transition is just, it’s so difficult at this stage. You’ve got the new nursery starters, new reception starters. You’ve got the year six going to year seven, that transition as well. Um, so I’ll start with the a six to seven. So my, my inclusion leader, my sister, one of my assistant heads, she’s been amazing really, really carefully during lockdown with the secondary schools.

She’s arranged zoom meetings with the secondary schools, with our children. Um, so lots of work and conversations and questions. Children always have the questions they just need uncertain. Yeah. So it’s given them that opportunity. Right? What questions have you got? Right. Let’s find, we’ll find the answers for you.

That’s what we do. We get six nursery and reception has been a bit more of a challenge because normally we would invite them in. We would do the welcome meetings, but we have zoom. We have this, you know, we we’ve doing, um, the same meeting I would have normally done in the hall with the parents. We’re doing it over zoom, you know, would do with them too in the presentation.

We’re doing the question and answers. So that’s okay. Um, the nursery and reception teachers are doing one-to-one zoom sessions with the individual parents and children. So they get to see them. We’ll put together a video about what the setting looks like. Yeah, we’re reading them a story. So they get to see the teacher reading the story.

He was sending them a video. So lots of things like that. And then it’s when they start in September, it’s about that staggered start, you know, when they’re ready to stay longer, they stay longer. They’re not quite ready. We’re not going to force it. You know, it’s that relaxed approach is your prediction.

That children will be more or less school ready than usual this year. I don’t think there’s one answer there because I think it depends on the individual child. I think from, from the 90 odd kids that we’ve got back at the moment. Yeah. They’re loving it. They, they, they, they’re glad to be back in, even though it’s different, the classroom is different and the learning’s a bit different.

They’re glad to be in school. So I think because of the type of school we are, I think the overwhelming majority are going to rush into school in September. They’re going to want to connect back with us and tell us everything that’s been going on, whether that’s good, bad, or different, you know, they will want to tell us just cause that’s the type of school that we have.

Um, we’ve just gotta be ready. We’ve just gotta be ready for those ones that are school refusing. Um, but those that’s are gonna struggle being in a classroom for that period of time, but we know that that’s going to be the issues. So I think if you’re prepared for it and you’ve thought about as many different scenarios as you can, and then go, right.

If this happens, what are we going to do? Okay. Because then teachers aren’t going to have, what do I do if this is facing me in the classroom that go to know what to do. So you’re doing a huge amount of kind of planning, um, preparation for, for September. Um, yeah. I’m wondering. So you’re a trauma informed school and this seems amazing for the children and they’re delighted to be there and it must be I’m sure in so many ways I’ve really lovely place to work, but it does sound like a lot of work.

I mean, what does this mean for your staff and what’s their wellbeing like, and just the trauma informed approach extended to kind of them and their wellbeing too. I think the staff wellbeing needs is critical because if staff aren’t regulated, if staff aren’t in a good place, that’s just going to translate to 30 children in the class and that’s, that’s not going to end well.

So we’ll have a very, very clear open door communication with may, if they can want to talk to me directly. But we have a structure where they’ve always got somebody they can talk to. And that includes a mental health first aid staff. Um, we’ve got a Welby member of staff as well. It keeps us all jolly and, um, is always there sending little messages out to making sure staff know they can go to somebody.

We’ve got the Headspace app, for example, for all members of staff. So they’ve got some sort of mindfulness of meditation for themselves and we’re organizing group, um, not group therapy. It’s group supervision. Yeah. Okay. Tell me more about that. Why are you doing that? Because for anyone who doesn’t know.

Yeah. So supervision is a way we get, um, an external person. It can be internal person, but we’re going for an external person who is there to listen, to talk to staff, um, for them to be able to confidently talk, um, about any issues that are going on for them. And for that, for that, that person, the person doing the supervision to sort of tease out what the issues might be.

Um, and for that person to come up with some of the solutions themselves. So we, we do supervision for our safeguarding leads and this will be extended now to, to group supervision for. Yeah, grips or phases. And then if anybody wants individual supervision, then that will be also available to them. And you’re investing in someone external coming in and doing that.

So you’ve made an active decision. This is something you’re going to prioritize in your budget. Yeah. Why did you do that? Because if you can’t look after your staff, it will impact on your children. And ultimately if it’s not happy in the classroom, that’s going to cause more behavior issues, lack of learning, lack of results.

You know, if you just, it just starts off a whole tumbleweed of, of issues. If you don’t have staff in the good, in the right place. So it’s an associate’s sandwich always goes down well as well. Yeah, I’ll have to say all the training, I deliver anything which has either like scones or bacon butters or something along those lines.

Usually those sessions go better and it’s nothing to do with my training. It’s a sausage sandwich is definitely there. Sandwiches are great. Um, I’ll come train in your school if , um, so, okay, so your, your staff is supported through, through the supervision and the, in terms of moving up from, uh, supervision for just a few members of staff to then looking to roll that out more widely, is that because you saw success from the individual supervision or is this just a kind of natural direction you were going?

I think there is a core requirement really for supervision, for safeguarding leads. And I think that recognizes that they’re dealing with very difficult situations. Now we will translate this to September. All members of staff are going to be dealing with difficult situations and therefore they need to have an outlet.

You know, and you’ve got to remember, some members of staff will have a partner who’s really good at listening. Some members of staff will live on the road or not be able to have that sort of conversation outside of the workplace. So, you know, I think we’ve got a duty of care for the staff to make sure there’s something in place for them.

I see. So it’s a response specifically, really, to the situation. Do you think you would continue with it beyond. I think it would be, um, assessing the benefit of it for the individual members of staff. So if staff, when we get feedback from it, say, do you know, this is really useful as a general teaching career, you know, the pressures of teaching.

Um, can we carry on, then we’ll look into that. Definitely. How will you measure the impact of it? Like how, you know, if I spoke to you in 12 months time and said, Stuart, you invested X amount of your budget into supervision 12 months ago. Um, has it been a worthwhile investment? What would you be telling me?

How would you show me that it was worthwhile? I think there’s a, there’s a couple of things. There’s the staff wellbeing checks, well, wellbeing surveys, you know, we’ve done those in the past. We’re just, how are things going for you? How’s communication in the school and how is, you know, work-life balance all that.

Um, and wellbeing is always one of those questions, but also you could also look at things like staff, absence, sickness, rates, you know, all those types of measures as well. If you wanted to, um, to explore a little bit more. And I can’t have this whole conversation with you without going and thinking a little bit about Offstead.

So I work with lots of schools, um, who aspire to being more like a school like yours. And often one of the things that they say is, you know, well, it feels like the right thing to do. And particularly right now, while we’re thinking about our response to the pandemic, we want to take this much more nurturing and caring approach, and it’s the right thing to do for the children.

But are we going to get our knuckles wrapped X months down the line by Allstate? When they say, why are you doing this? I mean, what, what, what’s our take on what you’re doing, keeping doing it awhile. Well, yeah, well going back sort of nine, 10 years, we were required improvement as a school, you know, we, and that was part of the journey where we’d started doing a lot of this work.

Um, and then the next inspection, we were good overall with outstanding leadership and management and outstanding behavior and safety. W how, what time, what time period was between those two judgments two years? Crikey. That’s impressive. Yeah. And was it like, you know, w was that a judgment? Did you feel that both of those judgments were fair reflections of where the school was at the time?

I think the recall is improvement. One was at the time was we felt hard done by, um, but I think that’s a natural response to criticism. And on reflection, when you look back now, uh, it was probably one of the best things that could have happened because it gave us say a kickstart to do some things we wanted to do, make changes we needed to make.

Um, so yeah. Um, and we had another inspection, uh, last year and again, very, very strong, the same sorts of comments that the caring approach came out, very strong in our reports. And, you know, it’s down to the children’s that they always had somebody to go to if they needed to talk. Wow. It’s things like that that are just critical to us.

So Offstead, and not only if I’m interpreting what you’re saying, they’re not only not having an issue with what you’re doing, but they’re actually picking it out as a, as a real strength in because it is a strength. And I think, I think that’s the thing. This isn’t some sort of, you know, quirky, let’s just an idea.

This is based in neuroscience. You know, trauma is area. We can’t deny that this is in place. We can’t deny the issues that happens as a result of this. Um, so yes, it works because it’s the right thing to do. Just a nicer place to be. If you’re in, if you’re working in a school and, and being educated in a school where the staff talk to you nicely care for you, pick up when you’re feeling wobbly, nurture you, then what’s what’s to argue with that.

Yeah, you sell it pretty persuasively. So people at the moment, I mean, obviously this moment in time is a massive cause for reflection for many people. And I think that there will be many, um, leaders and more general school staff out there who are thinking actually, maybe this is the time to make a bit of a change and maybe they are doing a little bit of some of the things you’ve mentioned already, or maybe they’re not, but they might think that this might help them in their community.

As we look to, you know, more widely reopen in September, if someone’s kind of, you know, they’re ready for that change, why do you start? Like, what are the first things you need to do? What do you need to think about? Like, how do you get going on that journey? What did you do to start with the knowledge?

That was the biggest thing. Um, you know, under understanding why children behave in certain ways and what’s underlying that. And once you have that knowledge, Oh, okay. I see why they did that. Right now, how am I going to help them now? How am I going to control them or punish them? Or how am I going to help them with this situation?

And I think that’s the starting point for anyone learn, learn about trauma, learn about this association, learn about attachment, learn about sensory processing, dysregulation, you know, all of the key things to do with, um, developmental trauma, um, and the impact wouldn’t, you know, that you then think, okay, what do I need to do?

How does my practice need to change? How do I need to change when I’m talking to that child? Um, because it isn’t about. I need to win as the, as the adults cause I’m in control. It’s a long, this is a long game. This isn’t about quick fixes for children. This is about making sure that when they’re an adult, you’ve done everything you can to make sure they can.

They can function really well and have the tool kits available them to cope with, with life. And. So that’s quite a big ask. Isn’t it like learn all the things and then, and then do them, which is like, do you have any, like you, obviously you go out and you train on this. I mean, do you have sort of specific recommendations of good, you know, what would you recommend if someone needed to go and buy a book or access a website or go to some, I don’t know what, where would they start?

Like, Oh my God. There’s so many, you’ve got done Hughes, Daniel Siegel. Um, you’ve got Sally Donovan, you’ve got loads and loads of authors like this, um, that I’ve got really good trauma-informed but adoption UK books are really good. You know, the troll trauma-informed schools book. That’s a great little read.

Um, just choose a book around trauma informed schools that’s been published in the last few years or has got highly recommended. Just read it. Sorry. I was just say I love the power of showing up, um, which is really aimed at parents. Isn’t it, but I think that’s one of the most basic, but really. Easy to apply kind of frameworks I’ve read for a really long time.

And that’s, that’s Daniel Siegel, isn’t it. And yeah, Tina Payne Bryson. Okay. If you really just want a very, very quick read, go into any Timson shops, they do. The little books of attachment are free of charge. You walk in and you’ve got to get your keys cut while you’re there. Um, and it’s a great little read.

You’ll take your five minutes to read it, but some of the key principles you’ve got. Ah, okay. So, okay, so you don’t need it like a PhD in neuroscience in order to absolutely not. You know, when you can talk about, you know, the amygdala and, and, you know, and, and all the different parts of the brain and the hippocampus, and that can calm you and they make Dylan that fires, you know, and that’s interesting, but you don’t need to know that it helps.

I think because you realize it’s actually, it’s, it’s in the body, that’s having these reactions, but just, just choose a book, read it. And it’s got, you’ve got to start somewhere. So I’ll either do an online training course. And I know, I think adoption UK do on PAC UK do an online attachment training. Cause she’s only a few quid, um, or, or get your school.

If it’s a school trained at least have a di. Well, it’s a starting point that does not mean you have a trading day or Goodyear troll reforms. This is, you know, I think some people think that, Oh, yes, we’ve had the training. No, that’s just, that’s just one element of a broader and longer game, but you’ve got to start somewhere, get the information, get the knowledge.

I think when it comes to training, sometimes we think that, you know, we can turn up and we can do a day of training and then we’re done. And I feel actually with a lot of this kind of practice that you’re talking about here, that’s exactly the wrong approach and you might need it to kickstart stuff. But for me often, I think that, you know, literally five minutes here, half an hour there, um, Oh, here’s a book recommendation, you know, it’s, it’s drip feeding, isn’t it?

I think so. I think the, I don’t know, maybe disagree with this, but I think it’s about getting the chance to practice it and see how it works. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You’ve got to, you’ve got to practice it. It’s got to be, it’s got to change your, your heart and mind to start with. Yeah. Then you’ve got to build on that.

You know, you need that initial. Oh, Oh. That’s why this child’s like this, or, Oh, that’s Oh, that’s just, that’s a child in my class. That’s exactly what they do. Yeah. Okay. And, and, and it’s those little changes on a site and trying training, right? What is it you’re now going to do different for that child?

You know, that child in your class make a difference to them today, tomorrow, this week. And it’s through those little changes, then you get massive change within your school. Yeah. So it’s lots of it’s. Yeah. It’s not about just changing the policy, actually. It’s about lots and lots and lots and lots of tiny things.

And if someone was looking, you know, we we’re time poor, like, you know, if someone said, look, I want to do this. I want to get started. I’m not quite sure where to start. I’ve only got so much time I can spend on it. What are my priorities? Where would you start? What policies? Big question. But don’t think you can’t start with policies.

Okay, because the danger is if that somebody with the knowledge puts the policies in, and then the staff don’t understand the rationale behind that policy, then it won’t be implemented. It’ll fall flat. Yeah. So I think it’s some, some basic knowledge and I think this is a great opportunity to do it. And it staff will have most of that knowledge in their own heads.

So one of the things that we’re going to do is part of our intake in September is his sites and stuff. Okay. What potential issues might we find our children having when they come back? Just allow that conversation because you’ll realize then certainly there is a whole page full of potential issues just by giving time to reflect on that, then it’s going into your psyche.

Okay. Okay. We might have issues. Okay. So how are we going to deal with these? Let’s take one at a time. What might this look like for the child and what might our response be when we get that situation? It’s just small bits, you know, a child struggling to sit still in the class because they’ve not had to sit still for the next w what do we need to do?

Well, let’s, let’s make it so they don’t have to, so let’s keep the sessions short, but if we see them, VGN then either as a whole class, we stop and have a break or that child, we get them to go and do a job. We move the round. Oh, James, can you just come and give these books out for me? You know, knowing that are different tolerances for the need for movement, for example, just as one thing will be different across the whole class.

Yeah. And just, just knowing that, knowing that every child would have a different sensory profile and you’ve got to be picking up on those and know, isn’t, it, it’s a lot to, it is, this is what teachers do. This is what they’re trained to do in terms of managing classrooms. If you’ve got the mindset that every child needs to be the same, then you’re going to have a struggle as a teacher.

If you look at individually, you do individual needs for, for maths, for phonics or for every other aspects of learning. So we just have to see this as just another, another element of learning. Yeah, I see. And so actually, you’re, you’re kind of talking to really, uh, just a more intuitive, but actually trusting ourselves a little bit more, maybe to take a more kind of care based approach to all that we’re doing in the classroom.

Absolutely. That becomes, that’s a leadership thing as well by because you need to make sure your staff know they can do those things. Yeah. I was going to say, last thing he can have is staffing. Now I’ve got to get through this work. I’ve got to do 40 minutes because then everyone gets anxious. Yeah. And that’s, that’s hard, isn’t it?

And also what about all the stuff around their restrictions around Hutch and that sort of thing at the moment in particular? I mean, it’s always a bit of a challenge, isn’t it? With safeguarding and things, but what, what, what are your kind of thoughts on that? Well, from, from September, well, it’s pretty much within your bubble.

Yeah, it’s pretty much back to normal for the children. You know, the guidance, he’s still saying staff where they, where they can, should try to stay away. Um, but I, I mean, I’ve seen how the last few weeks staff are gradually then getting closer and closer to those children. The hugs are starting to get a bit coming back.

You know, it’s a challenge, it’s difficult, but we’re lucky where we are at the moment in Birmingham, that the transmission rates really low at the moment. Um, but I think where it’s, if it’s bikes again, then it’s going to be more difficult. We’ll have to put more restrictions back in place. I guess it’s like everything, isn’t it.

We’re just trying to yeah. Take calculated risks and actually the children’s wellbeing and making sure that they’re going to grow into strong little people is maybe the more important, but I think we’ve just got to make sure that the practice school is, is as fun as it can be, you know? So it’s not high pressure.

You know, it’s not high stakes. That’s got to come from the top, hasn’t it? Oh, absolutely. You know, and I w I mean, I’ve been doing zoom lessons every week with the children. You know, every group has been having a zoom lesson for me, you know, and a lot of it is about fun. I want to see them laugh. I don’t want to say, I don’t want to see them like this.

I want to sit on giggles, you know, it’s good. Get the good,

I’ll just tell him jokes. Do talk to him about penguins. What is your thing with penguins? Oh, I just absolutely adore penguins. So I just think I say there were penguins and you’ve got, I love being a TA I’ve traveled around the country, seen as many penguins as a com. So. That’s a whole nother podcast, isn’t it?

Yeah. I love it. Um, I just, I have one more question from me and then we’re going to do our quick fire Q and a from the millions of people who’ve sent stuff in my last question was about if someone’s listening to this, like so much of what you said, it’s really evident that a trauma informed approach has got to be led from the top.

What if I’m listening to this podcast and I’m a school nurse or a teaching assistant or a costume teacher without any responsibilities in terms of leadership, can I make a difference? Absolutely. You can make a difference to the children that you work with directly, you know, and, and the, the ACS movement is very clear that having one strong, connected adult in that children’s life can make the difference for that child.

Okay. So if you’re working with those key children, even if the school isn’t trauma informed and doing some of the right things, you can still make a huge difference that life of that child. Um, and we know that when you look at celebrities that I think reflected on their time, they will always go back to that one teacher that showed them care, compassion time, you know, that’s, that’s what we can give to, to the children that need it.

And that’s what you can do. Anyone in a school can do that. Whether that’s a support assistant, a nurse, a secretary, it can be anyone that can do that. And if one found oneself in that position where you felt like you want to do this and you want to make this difference, but you’re in a school where that doesn’t feel like the sort of general culture and ethos.

Do you think that it’s better? Like, would you recommend that person stays in that school and tries to impact on the children that’s kind of within that reach to impact on? Or would they have more impact by actually saying maybe this isn’t the right fit for me culturally and I should move somewhere like your school where I’ll be more well-received I think if you can instigate change.

Brilliant. So if you can get an ally on the city leadership team, even if it’s, Oh, I’ve read this really, really useful article or wouldn’t that if you might want to read it, you know, if you can influence some change, brilliant. Yeah. And JV, I think if it’s directly affecting your own wellbeing as an adult, because they don’t get it and I’m trying to do this and they just don’t get it, then it might be time to move on because you’ve got to look after yourself as well.

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, I think that’s a really important thing to remember. Isn’t it? We can, I think particularly the sorts of people who really, really care often that care is, is all about the children and not enough about ourselves. And actually we muster as well. Don’t we? Okay. We’ve got loads of questions.

So we’re going to go, we’ll do these sort of fairly quick fire. Um, and uh, you’ll go all the answers of course. Right. Okay. So, um, how can we support children who are a lot happier at home than they’ve ever been at school? Oh, absolutely. I think the key thing on there is why were they not happy in school in the first place?

Okay. It’s, there’s two parts of that question. They might be happier at home, but where they also happy at school. Okay. If they weren’t happy in school, then you had that’s the issue was already there. So what was the issue in school? Was it was relationships, was it friendships? Was it, you know, the special needs?

What is it? So I think it’s about making sure that return to school is as stress free and relaxed and fun as possible while keeping the structure there because that’s, what’s going to be needed if you’ve got one map. Yeah. That is a tricky one. Isn’t it? But it comes back to what you’ve said a couple of times, really about just being curious really?

Isn’t it? What, Y Y and let’s pick up, um, what kinds of activities would you suggest to ease the transition back into school for very anxious pupils or those with previous trauma experience? Okay. I think the transition starts way before September, you know, it starts with, with conversations and connections.

Uh, now, what are you looking forward to? What are you worried about? You know, doing that whole, I tend to do the sort of scale of one to 10. So, you know, um, how are you feeling about the first day on a scale of one to 10? Where one is horrible, tens, great. Or whichever way round you want to do it? Okay. If okay.

If you, if you say it’s a seven, whereabouts that’s was quite a wobble, it was quite worried. What would help make it to five? What would make it go down? And they go, well, actually, I don’t know whether my friend’s going to be there. Okay. Right. Let’s find that out. Okay. Can I kind of still bring my water bottle?

Yeah. Oh, okay. Right. Okay. Okay. Now how would you feel? Five. Okay. It’s still a bit high hope. It’s that conversation? It’s, it’s giving them time and space to identify their worries and work, work through them. And I think you, you mentioned before, it didn’t either we, we need to find out from the children what their actual worries are.

Cause we can guess, and we can have a bit of an idea about some of those kinds of themes, but it will be those little things are the things that often really prey on little minds and to them, they’re the really big things, right? And we can often quite easily help them work their way around that company.

Absolutely. And it’s, it’s those worries that belong to them that are their worries. It’s worries that are broader than them or the people’s will Reese, you know, things like the huge backer worries, the book you can use resources play now. And over the summer, we’ve got a family support worker and inclusion team and our helpline number all in operation over the summer holidays.

Wow. So people can still get in touch with us. That’s amazing. Are you guys getting a break? Yeah.  and um, we’re making sure people are still getting the bright, but there’s a few key people that will still be working over the summer. I will make sure I get a break, but I will be still. I can’t, I find it very hard to switch off anyway, but there will definitely be times where I do switch off.

It’s hard though that isn’t it. See, I, I find myself talking a lot to my team about the need for them to look after their own wellbeing and have downtime. And that’s often an email I sent at half past four in the morning and we need to lead it a little bit as well. Live it as well as just, yeah, I think it depends on what, you know, my, my brain is a very busy brain and my, you know, sometimes doing stuff is actually better than not doing stuff.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And these are like really unusual times, I think as well. Um, it’s just that there are unusual times that are going on quite a long time as well. And it’s, it’s balancing those and it’s tough. Um, how to support a child who’s become looked after. So for anyone, uh, international. So I’ve gone into foster care probably, um, during lockdown who has not accessed school at all, due to the distance, getting them to school.

I think this is going to be a key thing in terms of safeguarding, um, and you know, the wellbeing, fortunately, some children that have gone into care at this point, that is where your, your learning mentors or your external services will kick in very, very quickly on day one. Because if you leave it today three, then potentially they’re gonna have exploded or gone really, really into themselves.

You see if you see kids disassociating and, and, you know, shutting down, then we’ve gotta be, we’ve gotta be on to that. So they would be, there’d be phone calls over the summer would be phone calls a day before, you know, they would be meeting them on the gate in the morning, bringing them straight in if they wanted to talk before going into class.

Yeah. Lots of opportunities. So lots of really careful planning, I guess, and really careful planning. Um, and then I guess this one leads on from that a little bit. So how do we an outside agency supporting children and families help you? The school ensure children and young people are ready to re return in September.

What do you need from us last over the summer? And so sort of agency is really, I mean, if it’s an agency that’s currently working with those children, you know, I’d, I’d want them to keep connecting with them. You know, however, if it’s every month or whatever it might be. Um, so those children know that these people are still there because, you know, if they have built connections with them and then they suddenly haven’t heard for them for three months, you know, w you don’t know what that child is thinking, have they had, have they had the, are they still alive?

Are they still, are they still working? You know, and those thoughts can consume a child. Um, and we might not know those thoughts unless we’re asking them. Yeah. So, yeah, I’d just say, keep the connection going. Um, for schools, any resources, any little tip, it’s a read in any book recommendations, classroom activities, all of those things are going to help.

And some agencies might be in a position to kind of, um, alert the school to children who are a cause for concern who might not previously have been. Absolutely. Yeah. If there’s any sort of agencies that are working with families that we don’t know about, you know, I would, you know, as a matter of course, expect them to have been in touch and to explain the situation.

Okay. Um, should, uh, behavior policies change to reflect the anxiety. Some children may be feeling, I would hope the behavior policy was already doing that. That would be my ideal. Um, but, but yeah, if, if it doesn’t, if it doesn’t also reflect that children will have difficulties anyway, and you have to have certain individuals.

Approaches to certain children, then he should, as a matter of course, so it may need some tweaks regarding, you know, the COVID specific elements, you know, not washing hands, coffin, touch in P you know, that type of elements. But for me, it still comes back to the original outcome if they’re doing that, what’s going on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, you you’ve talked really clearly about the, the, the policy it matters, but what matters more is the practice, isn’t it. So, um, what should or could we expect schools to offer across the summer to prepare children and young people to return? And then slightly more, a tricky question has the government funding actually made any difference?

Government funding. Okay. We don’t know how much we’re getting. Okay. So there’s this whole thing about this, this extra catch up funding and things. I still don’t know how much we’re getting. So the guidance last week suggested that we could use the money for summer activities. So summer activities you can do like clubs and activities, wellbeing activities over the summer, if you wanted to legitimate use of this money, but we don’t know how much we’re getting yet.

Okay. And how will they target how it’s spent and stuff like, do you work? Yeah. Okay. No idea. We’ve not got any detail on that as yet. Um, it would be useful to know, um, because it gives us a sense on, you know, can we afford to, to bring in an extra, um, support worker or an extra mentor to, you know, to divvy up the caseload a little bit in September?

Uh, we don’t know, it’s been passed on for us. It’s been passed on to the local authority and we’re just waiting on, on news on how much it is and when we’re going to get it, what would you like to be doing? What would you use a bit of extra cash for over the summer that would have a big impact. Over the summer.

Um, nothing, nothing more than what we were doing, which is checking in with our key families, um, for the summer because the children need a break. Yeah. Okay. And the reason we did, we’re doing a parents evening, um, the week after next, um, outside and, you know, social distance and all that. But we’re given all the children and parents a chance to one-to-one with their current teachers to end the, uh, great.

And that is crucial because this is just, it’s just half term blurred Easter blood. I mean, w we, we were in danger of the summer holidays becoming a blur as well. And some people carrying on with home learning and all that, you know, we need that distinctive Mark for the children. This is the end of the, uh, this is our good boys for this year.

And in September, you’ll start with your new teacher. Um, for us, that was the good Balis is, is critical. Do you think a legitimate use of some money over summer would be, you talked about how much you think your kids need to laugh right now? Like, could you, I don’t know, use it to make them happy. I don’t know.

That sounds like a big, it is. It’s a challenge, isn’t it? I think I’m hoping, um, that the summer holidays, the children will be able to get out more and do more normal stuff. Um, I think it’s strict. I think it’s, it’s going to be mainly picking up in September, um, for us anyway. I don’t think the, the. The benefits for over the summer, we’ll do any more than what we’re currently doing.

No, but it’s that kind of family outreach work really? That’s that’s going to be crucial. Yeah. Family support worker will continue working over the summer. Yeah. I mean, and, and that’s the thing. Yeah. You found family support workers in the schools that I work with often, they are just absolutely golden members of your team.

Aren’t they, they, they make such a difference with the last couple. I’m really aware of time and you got to go work out. How on earth are you going to make your schoolwork? How can schools support staff wellbeing? Their self-care should be a priority to enable them to support young people in their families.

You’ve probably already talked to us a little bit, but what would be your, you know, if you’re gonna do one thing, take the pressure off in terms of what you’re asking them to do. So, you know, but that’s general as well. So thinking about what planning you’re asking for, you know, what, what are you asking them to submit?

What you asking them to write? What are you asking them to plan? Give them as many resources as you can. To support their, their delivery. I think to be honest, the whole lockdown has given us an opportunity to think about how we do deliver and teach, because there’s suddenly all of this online delivery, national stuff.

That is really good. Yeah. Yeah. So, so actually sometimes in planning it come be right, we’re going to watch a five minute clip about this topic and I’m now going to facilitate the learning rather than me delivering planning during the presentation. It’s a lot of it’s just done now. So why not use that and say, it’s okay to use that because it’s good stuff.

Yeah. You know, we don’t, we don’t ask for weekly plans to be given. Now they plan on their presentations and they deliver it back to the planning. You know, it’s stuff that schools can do. Just take the pressure and they kind of, yeah, I think you’re taking that radical step of actually trusting your practitioners to be able to do their jobs.

Goodness made the amount of amazing creative stuff that I’ve seen in the home, learning from my staff over the past three months. It’s fantastic. And it’s just embedded the fact that you’ve got to trust your practitioners, that, that they’re amazing. Just let them, let them loose. Let them do stuff. And that’s been a really nice outcome, isn’t it?

I know that there’s been, yeah, there’s been getting bad and there’s been real challenge about the current situation, but there were some people who’ve just really flown. I’ve got, um, a, uh, lady coming up in a couple of weeks time who has just done the most amazingly, um, sort of creative ways of approaching work with our kids.

And they’ve been creating all that stuff from home. And it’s just one of those where she’s just, she’s obviously to someone who’s really creative and the kids have just really gotten bored with it and the families have enjoyed it too. And I think, yeah, it’s just lovely. And I think she’s probably someone that in, in normal times, would it just been kind of quietly getting on with that, but because of how things are right now, like actually it’s, you know, gained a bit of momentum and lots of people are using it.

I’m going to finish with this question. Um, I’m seeing a lot of edge you, Twitter criticism, fancy heart of the focus on trauma and schools, arguing that we should just return to business as usual. What would you say to them? I think for many children getting back to business as usual would be the best thing for them, but there’s going to be a significant number of children that is not going to work for.

It’s like any approach. There’s not one approach that will suit all children. You know? So if you’re a school that are pretty much going back to normal in September. Yeah, fine. But what are you doing for those that are not going to cope with that? If they have got other rooms or other curriculum that those children can do that can’t manage, then go for it.

You know, we’re going from the other end, we’re making it, you know, more free and focused in terms of small bursts for all children. And then we’ll gradually increase it from that way. And we’re not, we’re not saying we’re going to do that after a half term, after a week after two weeks, we’re just seeing how it is week by week and saying, okay, and reviewing, where are we now?

Can this class cope with this. Can we see a group cope with this? What do they need next? Um, but each school will do it in their own way. For some children going back to that normality as much structure as possible routine is might, might be the best thing for them. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s actually being led by the, by the need that’s there.

Yeah. Yeah. What thought would you like to leave people with who’ve? Who’ve listened to this,

listen to the children. Don’t think that the adults have the answers because our minds are very different. We don’t know the individual experiences of all these children. So take time, create time to listen, be curious and make sure you have a big smile on your face in September. And they think that you have missed them daily and New York, so glad that they are back.

Because they go into crave that connection. Even if they push that away very quickly, they’re still going to need it coming out of it emotionally that, wow. I think we end there. I’m going to press stop. Thank you so much. It’s been an absolute joy having you on today and I hope you’ll come back. Oh, I probably would.

So take care. .